______________________________________________________________________________ | File Name : SAIBABA.ASC | Online Date : 06/10/95 | | Contributed by : InterNet | Dir Category : UNCLASS | | From : KeelyNet BBS | DataLine : (214) 324-3501 | | A FREE Alternative Sciences BBS sponsored by Vanguard Sciences | | KeelyNet * PO BOX 870716 * Mesquite, Texas * USA * 75187 | | Voice/FAX : (214) 324-8741 InterNet - keelynet@ix.netcom.com | | WWW Mirror - http://www.eskimo.com/~billb | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| The following text seeks to dispel some of the many negative claims regarding the Indian holy man, Sai Baba. If you get an opportunity to see some of the video tapes made of him, take it, they are intriguing at the least. Keep in mind that energy can be slowed to mass and vice versa. If aether is omnipresent in varying densities, then it could be concentrated and slowed by sustained mental force to aggregate into a mentally produced physical pattern. Mind over matter is a reality and an everyday occurrence, proved by the very fact that you can move your arms or legs from a single thought. Why could this mental force not be extensible to control energy or external mass? Just keep this in mind when you are exposed to some of the phenomena claimed to be produced by Sai Baba.............................>>> Jerry/Sysop/KeelyNet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 220 114108 article Path: ix.netcom.com!noc.netcom.net!simtel!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu! uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!news. delphi.com!usenet From: Bon_Giovanni EarthSpirit.org Newsgroups: sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Info on Sai Baba? Date: Tue, 30 May 95 05:55:27 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 170 Message-ID: References: <3q2js0$61v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: COLLinda ____ __ ___ ____ __ _ _ / ___) / \ ( )| __ \ / \ | \ / | \___ \ | () | | | | / | () | | \\// | (____/ |_||_|(___)|_|\_\ |_||_| |_|\/|_| Though its colour be not deep and its smell be faint, use this flower in thy service and pluck it while there is time. - Tagore Intuition is fun. I happened to scan this newsgroup tonight, and am delighted to find this subject heading. (I rarely come across the name Sai Baba on the Net.) I offer thanks to Linda Nelson, Atanu Dey, and Gerald Huber for establishing this thread about him. They have made straight the way, allowing me a rare opportunity to talk about him on this newsgroup. Thanks to Linda who asked for data about Sai Baba; to Atanu who suggested me as a contact [thanks, Atanu!]; and to Gerald who reposted two reprints about the Baba. Linda implied it was somewhat difficult to obtain data about Sathya Sai Baba. If she likes, I can help out with places to find data on him, starting with Lexis/Nexis (1 800 543 6862), and the public library of most major cities. Finding the data is not a problem: the hard part is finding UNbiased info about him. That may be because the Swami requests his friends not to publicise him, nor evangelize in any wise, nor even praise him in public, and never to defend him. He suggests folks who appreciate him do well to simply not discuss him with the curious or with doubters - and as a result most of what one hears about him is from those who are curious or critical of him. Wherever I hear him discussed, I strive to discern who has facts and who posts fancy. Thus from long observation, I've noticed that hyperbole runs loud in both camps, pro and con, and if I join a conversation, I try to discern, point out, and offer what is fact distinct from fancy. (There are some conversations ya know that consist of no fact, no sincere inquiry, and those I usually do not attend.) Linda seems quite sincere in her quest, and two gentlemen have joined her, so I speak up now. I hope all agree that discerning fact from fancy is best when illuminating, but not fiery. I trust that all readers are eager to learn and share what's real without toasting anyone for it. Getting real, I've found that most folks who exaggerate about the Baba, praising or panning, are those who haven't met him. I also find that more often than not, the loudest critics, as a rule, have never talked privately with him. For example, Atanu Dey suggested at soc.culture.indian that a bullet in the head was the best thing for the Baba; in discussion with him I discovered Dey had never met the man, but apparently Atanu thought shooting him an apt hello. Later at alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, Dey advised his trigger finger itched because he had heard the Baba was a faggot. Soon after our conversation ended as Dey withdrew from both newsgroups. Atanu is not alone in his disgust with the Baba he has not met. Among published critics there are precious few who have ever even seen Sathya Sai Baba, fewer still who have met with him privately, or even at close quarters, and among those few, Tal Brooke, a born-again Christian author, is best known. Before he was saved, praise God, Tal lived in India in the Swami's isolated ashram, and speaks of his direct experience with the Baba at length in three novel exposes' (as well as on Christian tv shows like TBN and the 700 Club). His is by far the most exact critique about the Swami, and his statements deserve the attention of any who long for a first-hand report that is scathing in its denunciations, allegations, and observations. Tal reveals that not only is the Baba a sinister homosexual child molester, but also Satan incarnate. Tal says so again and again, and is convinced of that because, says Tal, the fellow does do miracles, raises the dead and so on, but only as Beelzebub, only as the Dark One, The Anti-Christ. Tal says he himself was once the chief and best disciple of the Baba, the man chosen to be the new Saint Paul who would preach Sai-inanity to the west. Tal does not say he left the Baba, very angry, when he was not so chosen, but five of the people with him at the time do say so. In his book Tal says he left only because Jesus came and saved him. Apparently Tal had not been listening when the Swami repeatedly said (and still says) he wants no Pauls, no evangelists, no preachers, none, zip. But at least Tal speaks of his own experience, as he recalls it. Almost every other critic in print bases his or her views instead on nothing but hearsay and rumour. Few detail any direct experience of their own, no documented facts, nor dates, nor witnesses, nor proof. That is why I say hyperbole seems to show up in both sides of the discussion regarding the Baba. For example, in her post, Linda suggested that Sai "claims 50 million devotees worldwide." That sounds to me like hyperbole. Where did Linda hear that? It's no small number of persons, and I wonder where those 50 millions hang out. I urge Linda to reveal the source of exactly where the Baba made that `claim'. (Did she hear him say that via a cassette, or a film, or a novel, or a newspaper, a tv show, or in person- how?) Where did she hear him say it? I ask for specifics because I find rumour and innuendo tend to vanish when due specificity is applied. (I am not saying Linda is exaggerating; I am asking for specifics, only. If she is right I will add the data accordingly; if she is in error, all can learn from that as well.) Linda advises that as far as she can find out, the Swami does little more than perform elementary prestidigitation, producing candy and trinkets out of thin air while the gullible watch in admiration. Gerald concurs, saying `exactly.' How do they know? Again I ask Linda (and Gerald) to be exact in detailing their data. How do they know what he does, and how do they know the folks who see him are so naive as to believe he is really doing miracles? There are certainly tricksters about, (David Copperfield is quite entertaining,) and there are gullible folks as well, but I ask for specifics from Linda and Gerald so I can determine clearly if I am in some wise now being tricked or taken for gullible myself. Both Linda, and Gerald, are asked to please offer some facts. The more specificity, the better. To that end is perhaps why Gerald posted two chestnuts: one somewhat over- served article from Dale Beyerstein, (an article which is not by Dale at all; it is a verbatim quote from a book by John Hislop, a man yet alive by the way and still writing books) and the other the threadbare reprint of excerpted minutes from a suit of B. Premanand, entitled `Satya Sai Baba and the Gold Control Act' which was laughed out of court and the Indian newspapers some many years back. (The story told by the taxmen who went to search the house of the Baba is far more entertaining than the lawsuit.) Another interesting read just about the same year as the lawsuit is from BLITZ, the Indian equivalent of the National Enquirer. The editor of that rag blasted the Baba on the front pages for months; issue after issue he ran various challenges and exposees. He finally went to meet the man himself, to show the Swami up as a con man. He was called in by the Baba for an interview, and on his return, the editor wrote in detail of his experiences with the Baba, again on the front page, and again for many issues. This time however, the reports were not a challenge to the Baba, but to the readers. The headlines went something like: GOD IS AN INDIAN. HIS NAME IS SATHYA SAI BABA. GO AND SEE FOR YOURSELF! BLITZ always specialized in weird headlines. Should Linda, or any reader wish to find precise data on the Swami, be advised there is thus far no central body keeping all published accounts, but finding material is not all that difficult, for in the matter of Sathya Sai Baba, a 70 year old man living yet in the village of his birth, there are now more than three hundred books, nearly two thousand major press articles, 67 films, several governmentally funded television shows (UK, Japan, Netherlands, Thailand), and a lot of talk. I know cuz I've come across all those in the past 22 years, and surely there must be much more. Of the records I have studied first hand, there are some dozen which are critical to a point of hostility. Of those, only one is written by an eyewitness who spent more than a short time with the Baba. The rest are, to my mind, interesting speculations, but hardly scientific studies, rarely even sincere investigations. There are also a great many books and articles that are mostly hagiographic hyperbole. I have investigated the Swami closely, and watched him at first hand over many years in varied conditions and environments. I nose what I nose. In that state of mind, I have no desire to prove anything to you, nor to disprove anything. I am just speaking my peace here, and moving on. Should you wish further discussion regarding the person or teaching of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, you are welcome to attend soc.culture.indian in the thread entitled SANDEHA NIVARINI SATHYA SAI BABA DISSOLVING DOUBTS All best wishes *+* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ One odd thing that I would like explained to me.....several days ago, I went to see a movie that was preceded by the new 'Gumby' movie. As I sat through the closing credits, the following appeared on the screen; Dedicated to Sathya Sai Baba Love All; Serve All I thought it a very peculiar thing to be attached to a movie about Gumby and now find this file on the InterNet. Is this the Celestine Prophecy at work or simply coincidence? It's not everyday you hear or read something about Sai Baba in 'normal' circles.......................................>>> Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------