______________________________________________________________________________ | File Name : MAYACOUS.ASC | Online Date : 10/28/95 | | Contributed by : Steve Wingate | Dir Category : KEELY | | From : KeelyNet BBS | DataLine : (214) 324-3501 | | KeelyNet * PO BOX 870716 * Mesquite, Texas * USA * 75187 | | A FREE Alternative Sciences BBS sponsored by Vanguard Sciences | | InterNet email keelynet@ix.netcom.com (Jerry Decker) | | Files also available at Bill Beaty's http://www.eskimo.com/~billb | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| The following was from a post to Glenda Stocks NeoTech list server. It provides some fascinating information on the acoustic properties of certain Mayan ruins. I lifted it for KeelyNet. -> Posted by: Steve Wingate ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: LQYM67A@prodigy.com (Wayne Van kirk) Newsgroups: alt.alien.research Subject: Mayan Ruins & Unexplained Acoustics 1 Date: 20 Oct 1995 12:42:34 GMT Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY Message-ID: <4685fq$135a@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> Were the Mayans really good at physics or did they have Help? Note: These acoustics have never been studied to date. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Musing About the Soundscape Mayan Ruins and Unexplained Acoustics: Note: This discussion started on Alt.Sci.Physics.Acoustics Newsgroup and was forwarded to the acoustic-ecology discussion group. All notes are in sequence of posting. ----Initial Topic-------------------------------------- At least two structures at the Mayan ruins of Chichen Itza in Mexican display unusual and unexplained acoustical properties. The Great Ballcourt: The Great Ballcourt is 545 feet long and 225 feet wide overall. It has no vault, no discontinuity between the walls and is totally open to the sky. Each end has a raised "temple" area. A whisper from one end can be heard clearly at the other end 500 feet away and through the length and breath of the court. The sould waves are unaffected by wind direction or time of day/night. Archaeologists engaged in the reconstruction noted that the sound transmission became stronger and clearer as they proceeded. In 1931 Leopold Stokowski spent 4 days at the site to determine the acoustic principals that could be applied to an open-air concert theater he was designing. Stokowski failed to learn the secret. The Castillo: This structure is a temple that looks like a pyramid and is the one most commonly pictured on travel brochures for the Mexican Yucatan. Apparently if you stand facing the foot of the temple and shout the echo comes back as a piercing shriek. Also, a person standing on the top step can speak in a normal voice and be heard by those at ground level for some distance. This quality is also shared by another Mayan pyramid at Tikal. I believe a good case can be made that the Maya somehow engineered these acoustical phenomena. After months of research, I cannot locate any scientific discussion or investigations regarding any of this. Any information or comments appreciated. ----Response-------------------------------------- I was at Chichen Itza two years ago. These acoustic phenomena are fascinating. The idea that they were intentionally engineered is not implausible, but it seems clear that it would have been different than our definition of 'engineering' in the modern world. It is really cool though and I would enjoy knowing more about it if people can add to the discussion. ----Response-------------------------------------- There are other "undocumented" acoustical properties of the ruins. When I was there several years ago the guide showed me a stack of what looked like stone artillery shells. He said that to this day no one has been able to determine what they were for. Then with a wink he picked up two sticks and proceded to play a tune on the "shells". Each one was precisely tuned. Perhaps the "ancients" knew more about acoustics than we give them credit for. --Response from reposting on acoustic-ecology discussion group -------------------------------------- A similar phenomenon to that reported at the Mayan ballpark structure can be experienced in Vancouver. At Science World two parabolic dishes have been set up across a large open noisy room. One can speak softly into one and the sound can be easily heard at the other end. I'm sure the two are not identical but the concept is the same and there is quite a bit of novelty appeal. The dishes are about 300 feet apart and have approx. a four foot radius. The effect only works when one speaks at or listens from the focal point of each dish which is not consistant with the report from Mexico, however, it might be a starting point into thinking about how it works. I also heard a similar pheomenon during last year's Vancouver Folk Music Festival. I work at the Jericho Sailing Centre about 1/4 mile due west of the westernmost edge of the festival site. Between the sailing centre and the site is a small hill, large enough to block out a good deal of the ruckus (except of course for the low frequencies). The west wall of the centre is about 35 feet high and about 60 feet long, it's surface is stucco and glass. Standing in front of it, I could hear perfectly the performances from one of the westernmost stages of the festival. My theory (and this is just plain speculation, no math involved here) is that the wall is high enough to reflect the sound that was being blocked by the hill. The stucco provided enough surfaces at the right angle to bounce the sound down. It could have also been bent down around the hill, by a temperature inversion or some other atmospheric or geographical factor but that theory breaks down because the sound was quite clear only in front of the wall. Clarity also varied at different distances and positions in front of the wall. ----Response-------------------------------------- I think you are awfully lucky to be able to go to the wonderful Vancouver Folk Festival whenever you like. ;-) Seriously, there's also Michelangelo's dome in St. Peter's/Rome. A whisper from the dome can be heard in the church. I believe there are some humorous stories associated with this particular phenomenon. ----Response-------------------------------------- RE: The Castillo: The 'piercing shriek' sounds like it originates from some sort of a periodic structure. Is the Castillo covered with stone steps? A similar effect occurs when you clap your hands near an iron fence or corregated wall, and the impulse is returned from each corregation. The echo then sounds like a 'twang.' The acoustic ducting effect is something else again. Might a periodic structure on the building surface act to diffract the waves and make them follow the surface? ----Response-------------------------------------- I was in Northern Guatemala last year at some famous ruins that I have forgotten the name of (mostly due to my brush with death from an intestinal parasite). Two pyramids stand face to face with a football field sized court between them, and low steps and wall on either side. One could easily hear a person talking in a normal voice at the opposite end of the grass covered courtyard. As we were working on a film and were trying to get wide shots, we used this phenomenon to our advantage, where yelling or radios would have been the normal practice. What was even more amazing, were that the stones of the pyramid were some type of resonant stone! I sat on one a foot square and when tapped it would produce a clear short sustained sound. A large part of the pyramid seemed to be made of this "limestone" as the locals called it, and the result was that as a person decended from the top of the pyramid, on the slightly over-sized steps, they would drop slightly and thus create a huge gonglike sound that would resonate across the courtyard and out into the surrouding area. It was amazing to hear the whole temple resound to a persons footsteps! Well worth the trip for you ear-tourists! ----Response-------------------------------------- A few months ago, someone from Houston sent me a copy of an article called "Parametric Amplification of Sound - Ancient Mayan Wall Provides Example for Design of Modern Acoustical Surfaces" written by Frank Hodgson in something called the Wall Journal (not to be confused with the Wall Street Journal) May/June 1994. It's a bit over my head, but he seems to be saying the unusual acoustics at Chichen Itza are due, in part, to the gaps which are part of the surface of the temple's exterior walls. The fellow in Houston says a researcher from Central Florida University was doing an acoustical survey there in late '94. I'll let you know if I hear anything more specific. One other thought on this subject - back in 1988 or thereabouts, acoustician Steve Garrett (then at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monetery, CA) did some work on ancient Peruvian Whistling pottery vessels. They made a sound when you poured water from them. Garrett was convinced there was more to the vessels than that. He got a couple of them and found they were tuned fairly precisely, if you blew into them. Two vessels blown simultaneously produced difference tones. He hypothesized this was intentional and a clue to the Vessel's real purpose. There's a paper on this somewhere in the annals of the Acoustical Society. ----Response-------------------------------------- I'm very interested in this type of phenomenon, and I've been mounting a research program at my institution to evaluate the absorptive and reflective properties of surfaces _in situ_. No doubt the gaps in these Mayan temple walls create a favorable interference pattern for the range of frequencies involved in the sounds of their ceremonies. ----Response-------------------------------------- Yes, the building has 4 stairways of stone which represent the number of days in the year, 91 steps per side and an upper platform for a total of 365. Also the Maya had an 18 base for math and 18 months in a year. The pyramid has nine levels divided by the staircases or 18. During the spring and autumn equinoxes a series of shadow triangles are projected on the north stair case which has serpent heads at the base. The triangles undulate in ascent in March and descent in September. Add this to the Nonlinear echo, and the sound projection from the top you get one tricky pyramid. The Question is was all this accidental or by design. If by design How? The Mayas were stone age people. ----Response-------------------------------------- In December 1994 I travelled to Belize, and visited a ceremonial site on the Guatemalan border which is still being excavated, called Xunantunich. When we had climbed the tall pyramid and looked down into the courtyard where people assembled to be addressed, we noticed a strange illusion. The people walking across the courtyard appeared to be smaller and more distant than one would have expected, since when in the courtyard the pyramid seems to loom quite close above. We could also observe that the people in the courtyard were talking, apparently quite loudly, but that their voices sounded muted and distant. Yet as we spoke to one another, our voices seemed amplified. A large recess in the wall roof the pyramid behind us functioned as a resonator, and gave our sounds back to us with a bright, ringing quality. We could be heard quite clearly in the courtyard below. Our host suggested that this enabled one to sound larger than life and that such designs helped to maintain the mystique of the Mayan class structure. He also pointed out that the stone used in building the pyramid had resonant qualities, although the structures as we see them now are not in their finished form -- they are missing the polished stucco surfaces and wood additions they were designed for. ----Response-------------------------------------- There's a considerable history to Mayan architecture, and although the pyramid we ascended was a work added to periodically, with each generation of ruler, there is a strong sense of overall design. Remember that the Mayan calendar is much more accurate than the Roman, and that their mathematical skills are as yet not fully accounted for. Perhaps their sense of sound in general is worth study? ----Response-------------------------------------- I posted the original Chichen Itza: unexplained acoustics in sci.archaeology.mesoamerican newsgroup. and got some interesting responses including one on Tulum on 07/18 or 19 and another regading Chichen Itza's "Musical Phalluses". These were public posting and should be discussed in WFAE. ----Response-------------------------------------- Article 1: "You could also mention Chichen Itza's "musical phalluses". These are a series of cones that produce musical tones when tapped with a wooden mallet. Supposedly, back in the '20s members of Morley's team had some of them set out in rows like a xylophone and played Xmas carols on them. I've never read of any musicologist studying them to determine their pitches and compare them with Western scales and notation (has anyone else seen something of this sort?) About 20 years ago, the cones were laying stacked in piles behind the old park entrance near the Castillo. Someone put up a sign saying "Do not hit with stones", so of course various tourists who otherwise wouldn't have given the cones a second look banged away at the cones with rocks, breaking many of them. C.M. Froggy@neosoft.com Article 2: Another example: When I was at Tulum on the Yucatan coast, I seem to remember that there was a temple which gave a clear and long-range whistle or howl when the wind velocity and direction were correct. The guide, for what it's worth, stated that this was used as a signal to warn of incoming hurricanes and big storms. I heard it that day, and I don't think it was an accident that the sound was generated in this way. Looks like a pattern here. The Maya may have had a particular propensity for acoustic engineering. Why not, they were great at engineering for specifically? It would be an interesting research problem. THIS IS THE END OF THE WFAE FILE WAYNE VAN KIRK LQYM67A@prodigy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: LQYM67A@prodigy.com (Wayne Van kirk) Newsgroups: alt.alien.research Subject: Mayan Ruin & Unexplained Acoustics 2 Date: 20 Oct 1995 12:44:02 GMT Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY Message-ID: <4685ii$1u0a@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> Two additional Mayan sites with unexpected acoustics Palenque,has a group of three pyramids from which a three way conversation can be held from atop. Kohv(u)nlich was also mentioned by an archeaolgist to have "weird" acoustics. ---------------------------------------------------------CHICHEN ITZA Various excerpts regarding the Great Ballcourt's acoustics The North Temple The north Temple of the Great Ball Court is another example of the Maya's ability to achieve beauty of proportion. The inside wall which now is an effective sounding board, is covered with a carved frieze still bearing traces of color. Standing in this temple one can speak in a low voice and be heard distinctly at the other end of the court, five hundred feet away. --------------------------- ACOUSTICS Acoustically the court is amazing - a conversation at one end can be heard 135 metres away at the other end and if you clap, you hear a resounding echo. A remarkable feature of the Ball Court is its acoustics. A person standing in one of its ends may whisper being heard 170 meters afar. Or may drop a coin and the sound travels that distance. The court has no vault. It is open to the sky and has no continuity between the walls, the prescenium and the throne of the bearded Man. If one stands in the center of the court, near one of its walls and claps the hands, he will hear at least nine times the echo of the clapping. Also if one yells. This phenomena seems to be unique. "Thru the Lense, Guide to the Ruins of Chichen Itza" Jose Diaz Bolio 1971 ----------------------------------------------- If it were a moonlight night and he wanted to give his guests a special treat, he ordered a phonograph concert in the Ball Court. Tarsisio and the servants set up the phonograph in the north temple, where the back wall slopes forward and forms a perfect sounding board. At the opposite end of the court the servants supplied cushions and the guests sat on a raised dais among the half-ruined pillars of the south temple that extends eighty feet across the end of the Court. The acoustics were amazing, for the audience could hear perfectly the strains of Sibelius, Brahms, and Beethoven. The total effect was indescribable. The brilliant Yucatecan sky formed a great overhead dome, the moon cast ghostly light on the stone walls and the north temple, and the calm air, rarely disturbed by a breeze, added a sense of mystery to the setting. After the performance the guests, awed by the uncanny effect, walked quietly back to the Casa Principal through the moonlight, still under the magic spell. One of the visitors in 1931 was Leopold Stokowski, who spent four days with Morley. He brought the latest recordings of his Philadelphia Symphony Orchestra and played them in the Ball Court, at the Castillo, and at the Temple of the Warriors. One staff member believed that if Stokowski "and Morley could have found a sponsor, their plan to conduct a symphony with instruments all over the place would have gone through. We'd have loved it too." Actually, Stokowski had a far more serious purpose, as he and Morley attempted to learn the acoustical secret of the Ball Court. At the time, the conductor was designing an open-air theater for concert work. He and Vay spent hours placing the phonograph in different positions in the Ball Court in order to determine the reflecting surfaces. Theoretically, the structure should have had poor acoustics, but as every visitor to Chichen knows, it possesses amazing properties of sound. After days of experiment, they failed to learn the secret, which remains one of the unsolved mysteries of ancient America. "Sylvanus G. Morley" Robert Brunhouse 1971 --------------------------------------- UNEXPLAINED ACOUSTICS "Chi Cheen Itsas'" famous "Ball-court" or Temple of the Maize cult offers the visitor besides its mystery and impressive architecture, its marvellous acoustics. If a person standing under either ring claps his hands or yells, the sound produced will be repeated several times gradually losing its volume, A single revolver shot sounds like machine-gun fire. The sound waves travel with equal force to East or West, day or night. Disregarding the wind's direction. Anyone speaking in a normal voice from the ''Forum" can be clearly heard in the ''Sacred Tribune'' five bundred feet away or vice-versa. If a short sentence, for example, "Do you hear me?'' is pronounced it will be repeated word by word. .. Parties from one extreme to the other can hold a conversation without raising their voices. . This transmission of sound, as yet unexplained, has been discussed by architects and archaeologists... Most of them used to consider it as fanciful due to the ruined conditions of the structure but, on the contrary, we who have engaged in its reconstruction know well that the sound volume, instead of disappearing, has become STRONGER and CLEARER. . . Undoubtedly we must consider this feat of acoustics as another noteworthy achievement of engineering realized millenniums ago by the Maya technicians. "Chi Cheen Itza" Manuel Cirerol Sansores 1947 ------------------------------------------ Beside the Tiger temple stands the open oblong patio known as the Ball Court, or Tlachtli, as which the Mexican Department of Monuments fortunately uncovered and restored. In the distant past, this court was an important place for sports. The parallel stone walls are thirty feet high and one hundred and twenty feet apart. In the exact center of each wall, twenty feet from the ground, are two huge stone rings, each carved to represent a serpent biting its tail. The casual stranger would have to stand a long while under these rings before making the right guess as to their use. And his first discovery, if he had a friend at a distance, would be that a shout uttered under either ring is echoed at least a dozen times. -------------------------------------- Although the Great Ball Court has been reffered to as a "Whispering Gallery" (National Geographic Jan. 1925), it is unlike others including the Dome of St. Pauls Cathedral in London, Statuary Hall in the Capitol at Washington, DC, the vases in the Salle des Cariatides in the Louvre in Paris, St. Johns Lateran in Rome, The Ear of Dionysius at Syracuse, and the Cathedral of Girgenti. All these are considered accidents. All rely on curved walls, ceiling, etc. to focus the sound, indeed the Whispering Gallery effect is considered an acoustic defect caused by a long curved surface. The Great Ballcourt has no curved surfaces. The Castillo (Pyramid) Chichen Itza A series of three articles were published in the Wall Journal during 1994, written by Frank Hodgson. The Wall Journal (P.O. Box 1217, Lehigh Acres, FL 813-369-0451 fax) is a trade journal covering the highway noise barrier, manufacturing and related industry. The Hodgson articles seem to imply that the Castillo (Pyramid) at Chichen Itza (located about two hundred yards away) can reflect sound in a nonlinear way shifting the frequency upwards independent of angle of incidence and unaffected by the character of the incoming signal. Hodgson suggests that this shifting effect could be harnessed to produce a highway noise barrier wall design that would reflect sound that was pleasant. (from Truck noise to Bach!). It could also be used for concert halls, etc.. Some say that when you clap your hands in front of this pyramid the reflected sound resembles a ricocheting bullet. They also say that when one speaks in a normal voice from the top of the Castillo, another 150 yards away one can hear the words clearly even when the area is filled with tourists and peddlers. Structures at Tikal are said to provide similiar acoustics. The Castillo is also a Mayan calander with 4 stairways of 91 steps each and an upper platform for a total of 365. During the spring and autumn equinox a series of shadow triangles are projected on the north staircase which has serpent heads at the base. The triangles undulate in ascent in March and descent in September. Nonlinear echo, sound projection and a large stone calender with serpents that undulate twice a year. Can anyone out there top that? WAYNE VAN KIRK LQYM67A@prodigy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vanguard Notes In case you missed it, consider the following excerpt from the above document: ...we who have engaged in its reconstruction know well that the sound volume, instead of disappearing, has become STRONGER and CLEARER. . . Constructive interference to naturally amplify the original sound, marvelous. This could definitely be used as Keely claimed to produce an 'augmentation' of force by the proper use of waveguides, a Bose-Einstein condensate, and/or a harmonious mass aggregate resonance. In such a structure, a small 'introductory impulse' would be greatly amplified and continue to resonate for a long period of time based on the 'purity of the graduation'. Disney world or the Mayan ruins, decisions, decisions...........>>> Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------